Changing my setup......opinions...

[Tor Arve Baroy]

Hi, I am considering changing the setup on my GFI pedal steel. I come from a rock`n`roll-guitar background, and find my self missing the bottom E string a lot. The one i rarely use however is the D string on my steel......
My thought is to put the low B where the D string now is (9th) and then add a low E (10th)
For my playing style nowadays I wont miss the D string much, but maybe somewhere down the road I will.
I also have a nonpedal backneck in G tuning on the guitar:



This is the guitar (and me)

Would appreciate advice/wiews/thought from all you other steelers out there

[Ryan Barwin]

The D string has many uses that aren't obvious at first...you may want to explore that before getting rid of it. There's tons of threads on how to use it for some cool chords as well as fast single-note runs in the low end of the tuning.
I'd recommend leaving the string on, even if you're not using it now.

If you decide to get rid of the D string, you'll need to get the note on a lever like on a universal...either by raising the B string or lowering the E string. I'm not a U12 player, but supposedly you don't lose the function of the D string by having it on a lever...

By the way...that non-pedal back neck is awesome.

[Pete Burak]

I think of D in the typical D-string register more as a note I need to get sometimes, but not important enough to dedicate an open string to... at least not for the style of playing I'm interested in.

In our neck of the woods I believe Larry Behm is leading the way with regard to S10/D10 E9th players that have reported removing their D string in favor of something more useful for their style. You might PM him for more info.

After removing your D string and inserting your low E, you might also try lowering your open tuning to Eb9th, thereby giving you your low E (and all your "open" chords/notes) on the first fret, a bar-able position that you can slide in and out of
without raising the bar or needing open strings.
I have found this to be a huge asset with regard to playing in Rock styles, as there are just a ton of rock songs in the Key of E and A.

[Georg Sørtun]

Tor Arve,

I play an S10 E major v/chromatics - with low strings in the "wrong" order - myself, and with extra raise/lowers it pretty much covers what I want to play regardless of music style/type. So removing 9th string and moving the "B" up and adding a low "E" will probably work for you.

Before you make changes to your 10 strings though, you should try out a U12 and see if that doesn't work even better. I got one of those and it sure covers some ground.

[Jerry Hayes]

Hey Tor, a local player I know works with a rock and blues band and played an old MSA Sidekick S-10. It was pretty rickety so he was going to order a new GFI from Bobbe Seymore so he came over and looked at my S-12 to see what could be obtained with that low E string. What we decided was a standard tuning on the first 8 strings and a B and E on strings 9 and 10. He had the first pedal lowering the 3rd and 6th strings to G, and the 2nd pedal was now the A pedal raising 5 and 9 and the B pedal raising 3 and 6 was now in the third slot. The E lowers and raises were on the right knee and the LKR lowered the 2nd and 8th string to D. His LKL lowered the B strings (5 and 9) to Bb. This set up works wonderful for rock and blues and you can get those great "power chords"............JH in Va.

[Cliff Kane]

I agree with what Ryan and other are saying about the 9th string D. It can seem to be in the way for strumming rock stuff, but it gives you the E7 tuning which is a useful blues rock tuning. If you want to make changes for an E in your low position you should check out b0b's E7 Sacred Steel primer:
http://b0b.com/tunings/sacredsteel.html

If it were me and I had your guitar, I would keep the E9 tuning (low B and 9th string D and all) because I find it's a pretty good all around tuning, and play around with the 6 string non-pedal back neck, maybe playing rock leads in open E, D, or G.

If you want to add something to your E9 tuning to open it up for more low end rock/blues, etc., add a pull to lower your 10th string B to an A. It's part of the "Franklin" change that people put on a fourth pedal, but I add the 10th string B to A change to my E9 "C" pedal (pedal 3). It gives you a low A, and when combined with the 8th string E and the knee lever that lowers your 9th string D to C# you have a nice low A chord. With this change on your C pedal you get a low root A for the "pedals down" A6 tuning on the E9 neck, just use your B and C pedals, and add the D to C# change on string 9 (another good thing about having that 9th string D).

[Paul Sutherland]

Just in case you haven't seen this video on the subject of the ninth string.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoYf3fXna90

[Larry Bell]

That was a wonderful summary of ways to use the 9th string, Paul.

I didn't see anything I couldn't do by raising the 9th string tuned to B a step and a half to D. For the D to C# change, I have a feel stop on one of my guitars but often just release the B to D raise to C# with the A pedal if I don't also need the 5th string as a B. I also lower 8 to D on a lever and find that some of the grips that skip strings (e.g, 976) are more contiguous when the D is on the 8th string (876).

Are there examples you can think of that CAN'T be played without the dedicated D string? I would suspect there are things that require 10 to be a B and 9 a D but I haven't used a low D string for almost 35 yrs so I guess I'm not going to miss it. I do use that low b7 OFTEN in chord voicings and sing1e string passages but haven't missed having the dedicated string.

There are a million ways to skin that same cat.

[Bobby Snell]

Greetings to Tor in beautiful Norway!

Changed 10 string and 9 string on Williams all-pull D10:

10=E 9=B 8=E 7=F# 6=G#

Added pedals to standard E9:

Pedal 4 now lowers B to A, and raises G# to A. (Splits 6-string to G with knee lever on this pedal and pedal 2)

Knee lever that formerly lowered the 9-string D-C#, now lowers 8-string E to D.

Pedal 5 now lowers 7-string F# to E.

Holding down the 5-pedal and rocking the 4-pedal gets those power chords and guitar riffs.

[Paul Sutherland]

Larry: I suppose you're right; raising the new 9th string from B to D gives you everything that I covered in my video, which is pretty much everything I know about using the low D string.

Mechanically I would not want to do that on my old push-pull. I don't like to use half-tone tuners on critical changes such as the B to C# change. They never seem to be quite as reliably in-tune. With a modern all pull steel like the GFI that shouldn't be a concern.

There's nothing wrong with experimentation.

[Tor Arve Baroy]

Thanks for all advice so far, I`m leaning towards adding the low E, and put the B string on 9th, with a pull up to D.....
Suppose I will use the christmas holyday to do the job!

[Franklin]

The chromatic end of the E9th is a big reason to keep it in place.....Try lowering the E to Eb and raise the B to C#....With those strings activated the Eb...D....Db/C# chromatic intervals are there.....The Pentatonic, Chromatic and diminish intervals, provided by the D string in place as you have it easily opens up more music possibilities than not having the string....Also playing the fifth interval (B string) directly to a b7 note (D string) and then to a semitone Eb note and releasing it to an E note is very blues/rock based....With the D string those intervals are easily played at tempos commonly heard by guitarists like Carlton and Vai....and virtually impossible at those tempos without it......The D is a dominant seventh note in the pedals up position and a fourth in the pedals down position.....Ask any music teacher how important these intervals are to the single note melodic approach over chords. Having easy access for speed to those intervals all over the fretboard can only be a positive improvement over any tuning that doesn't have easy access to them.......Paul

[Tor Arve Baroy]

Hello Mr. Franklin!

....of course, three chromatic notes like that is something I use a lot on the guitar....hadn`t thought about that...
I`ll play around with that a bit...

BTW, on the picture I am playing on the release of an album you originally played on
Brent Mason produced a record for a norwegian girl called Cindy Kvinlaug a couple of years ago. You play great on the album, hard to follow

[Pete Burak]

I will once again concede that everything Paul Franklin says is correct.
Yet, I still don't need an open D string to solo as fast as I can personally play, or to find the chords I'm looking for.
Just sayin'... I simply don't need an open D string to play the things I'm interested in.
It actually gets in the way. But that's just me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQN9YWGQ-io

[Bobby Snell]

I would posit that removing the D-string means it's no longer the E9 tuning.

It's all in the application. Tor's original post, where's he's pining for the lost low E, echoes a lot of players who are used to that range on 6-string guitar. It's just not there on 10-string E9 PSG.

Especially in high-gain power chords. 1-5-1. On C6, pedal 8, there's one (A-E-A) in that range at one position. I found it helpful to have the 2 chords at the same position, hence my dumbed down changes to the venerable E9.

I'll keep the push-pull stock for the honky-tonk gigs

[Franklin]

removing the D-string means it's no longer the E9 tuning.

Bob, well stated......

Pete very nice playing..........

Tor,

When I speak of chromaticism its because of a desire to play these types of lines......Check Birelli out at around 45 listen to his ability to play chromatic intervals across the fret board.......And listen to how easily he jumps from wide intervals by skipping strings just as easily as the chromatic........With all other instruments skipping strings or keys is the technical approach to accomplish melodies.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXDDQNeSlHI

I would love to play at Birelli's level of musicality, which is why I argue the importance of a scalar overview to the instrument opposed to the triadic tunings for the sake of easy forward rolls or strumming......When Buddy placed the two D strings on the C6th, it was to enable more chromatic options in the upper and lower range.....just sayin' when influences from other instruments are applied to the pedal steel, scale intervals become the focus........Most instruments tunings developed for the ease of playing half tone, whole tone, b3rd, and 4th intervals....The piano is the perfect chord instrument and it is completely chromatic........I see no reason why the steel guitar should not follow the same evolution.

For enjoyment check the same flexibility the sax player also has on this Birelli clip......A good close up of his hands for technique at 230.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRi3vIcE ... re=related

Paul

[b0b]

I'll just leave this here.

[Jerry Hayes]

Looks good b0b except IMHO, pedal 4 should be in the first slot and the A & B pedals moved over to the 2nd and 3rd slots and then add a standard C pedal at the 4th slot. I'd also move that pedal three change over to the LKR and drop the bottom E to F# change. Oh well, come to think of it maybe I'd just be happier with an E9 set up instead of the "sacred steel" thing pictured here. I just can't get around the idea of having two E string exactly the same pitch side by side, seems like a waste but I guess it works OK for those guys......JH in Va.

[b0b]

I played that copedent for a while and it worked very well, especially in the low register. The two E strings are unison for rhythm chops, but they split with the pedals and levers for lead lines.

You can't get the exact Nashville licks out of it very easily. It's great for country rock, though.

For something that's closer to a standard E9th, Dan Tyack's copedent is exactly what Tor has described. He loses the D string and has a low E instead.

[Paul Hutzler]

I changed my 10th string to G# and 9th string to B. The pedals raise those strings just like they do the 6th string G# and the 5th string B. Basically, I can mimic my licks from the 6, 5, and 4 strings down an octave on the 10, 9, and 8 strings. Lastly, my RKR drops my 8th string E down to the D note.

[Clete Ritta]

I like the D on string 9, with a 10 string E9 tuning as it is.
Beside the dominant 7 for blues, it enables a lot of jazz chords as well.

On 12 string, I do really like the universal tuning without the D.
I quickly got used to using the lever to lower 8 to D when I needed it as Larry mentions.
Im not much of a fast picker on the low strings yet, but work on it when I can.
Franklin, thanks for the links! Tremendous players I had not seen before.

I changed my 12 from Uni E9/B6 to Ext. E9 recently, to compare the two tunings.
I do really like the 3 and 6 G lower a half on pedal 0 as Jerry mentioned.
Id keep that pedal in a Uni setup perhaps as well.

Oddly I am having a little harder time with the string 8 D on 12 strings than I do on 10 strings.
Maybe the string spacing has something to do with it?
Adding those 2 low strings also introduces a few grips Im just not used to yet.
The Uni grips felt natural right off the bat, and helped me ease into study of the C6th tuning.
For some reason the lower tuning of the universal was just easier to grasp for me.
I may change it back to U12 E9/B6 again in the future, but I'm having fun trying to play the Ext 12 with that now pesky D string haha.

Clete

[Rich Gibson]

Tor I'm playing in a modern country band and was getting perilously close to being asked to double on guitar so I made the switch to a low E on 10 and the B on 9.
I lower the E to D and the B to A on pedal 4.Great lick pedal in E and gives me 5ths on 9&8.
I needed distortion power chords and this is the ticket.
I also lower 8 to D on RNL and B still goes to C# on pedal A so I still have pretty much all the same changes I had before with minor grip adjustments.
The D string is cool for jazzy 7th 13's etc but we are talking about dumbass brutestrength powerchords which are all over today's records.Very handy when the guitar player insists on playing the interesting parts:)
These also allow a nice Chuck Berry/Rockabilly rhythm in most keys.
I tried it out last nite for the 1st time and I felt it worked really well for this style of music.I want to read up on the whole gospel steel thing,I think there's allot there for rock rhythm.

[Tor Arve Baroy]

Hi Rich
I have a second guitar, a Shobud. I am gonna set that one up with a low E on 10 and a B on the 9.
I have a feelin this will work very well for my needs
If everything works fine, I`ll make the same change on my main guitar also!

[Tor Arve Baroy]

My 15 year old thread....scary how fast time flies.....

I had totaly forgotten that the Pedalsteel legend, Paul Franklin himself chimed in on my thread, fun!!

To all of you that have been wondering for 15 years what I ended up with, I can let you know that the D string is still on my pedalsteel.

[Dan Beller-McKenna]

Well, since you brought up the topic again… Another option is to lower string 10 to A. This gives you a big fat chord on the bottom end, much like a six string. Power chord grip is 10-8-6(B). I lower 10 on my A pedal (still raising string 5, B-C#), which might be a non-starter for a lot of players (and I do have to have the B-C# raise on that string, which I put on LKV), but it opens up some nice harmonic and melodic possibilities. Just a thought.